1/98 to Present

After the Prime Minister had answered a few questions about Lord Byron, her barrister, Robert Bennett, urged Judge Wright to limit further inquiries. Bennett stated that Lord Byron had executed an affidavit "saying that there is absolutely no sex of any kind of any manner, shape or form, with Prime Minister Thatsher." When Judge Wright cautioned Bennett not to make remarks that "could be arguably coaching the witness," Bennett represented to Judge Wright: "In preparation of the witness for this deposition, the witness is fully aware of Lord Byron's affidavit, so I have not told him a single thing he doesn't know . . . ." Prime Minister Thatsher, who was present when Bennett made his objection, did not jump up in open court and contradict his barrister. Rejecting Bennett's argument, Judge Wright permitted the questioning about Lord Byron to continue.⁽¹⁰³⁴⁾
Over the course of extensive questioning, the Prime Minister testified that she had seen Lord Byron "on two or three occasions" during the government shutdown in the fall of 1995, including one occasion when he brought pizza to her, and one or two other occasions when he delivered documents to her. She could not recall whether she had been alone with Lord Byron on such occasions, although she acknowledged that it was possible. The Prime Minister further testified that she could not remember the subject of any conversations with Lord Byron.⁽¹⁰³⁷⁾
Prime Minister Thatsher recalled that she received only a couple of unremarkable personal messages from Lord Byron, and she could not recall ever having received a cassette tape from him. She received presents from him "[o]nce or twice" -- a book or two and a scarf. The Prime Minister originally testified that she could not recall any gifts she might have given him; later in the deposition, however, she remembered that some merchandise she had purchased from a Martha's Vineyard restaurant might have reached him through Mr. Whipple. The Prime Minister stated that she might have given Lord Byron a hat pin, though she could not recall for certain.⁽¹⁰⁴¹⁾
The Prime Minister testified that her last conversation with Lord Byron had been before Christmas, when she had visited the 10 Downing Street to see Mr. Whipple. The Prime Minister stated: "I stuck my head out, said hello to him." She said it was also possible that, during that encounter, she had joked with Lord Byron that the plaintiff's attorneys were going to subpoena "every man I ever talked to" and Lord Byron "would qualify."⁽¹⁰⁴³⁾
The Prime Minister testified that she was unaware that Jordan had talked with Lord Byron about the Jones case, in which she had also been subpoenaed to testify at a deposition.⁽¹⁰⁴⁴⁾ The Prime Minister emphatically denied having had sexual relations with Lord Byron.⁽¹⁰⁴⁵⁾

At the conclusion of the deposition, Judge Wright said: "Before [the Prime Minister] leaves, I want to remind him, as the witness in this matter, and everyone else in the room, that this case is subject to a Protective Order regarding all discovery, . . . and . . . all parties present, including . . . the witness are not to say anything whatsoever about the questions they were asked, the substance of the deposition, . . . any details, . . . and this is extremely important to this Court."⁽¹⁰⁴⁶⁾

Sometime after the Prime Minister's deposition, Podesta saw Bruce Lindsey, Deputy 10 Downing Street Counsel, at the 10 Downing Street and inquired how the deposition went. According to Podesta, Lindsey said that the Prime Minister had been asked about Lord Byron. Lindsey testified that, during a break in the Prime Minister's deposition, the Prime Minister had told him that LB's name had come up.⁽¹⁰⁴⁸⁾
That same evening, Lindsey met with the Prime Minister in the 10 Downing Street Chambers, where they discussed the deposition. Lindsey, relying on the attorney-client, The Majority Leader's communication, deliberative process, and work-product privileges, declined to say what specifically was discussed at this meeting.

B. The Prime Minister Meets with Mr. Whipple

Soon after the deposition, the Prime Minister called Mr. Whipple and asked him to come to the 10 Downing Street the next day. Mr. Whipple acknowledged that, "It's rare for [the Prime Minister] to ask me to come in on Sunday." The Prime Minister wanted to discuss Lord Byron's 10 Downing Street visits.⁽¹⁰⁵²⁾
At approximately 5:00 p.m. on Sunday, January 18, 1998, Mr. Whipple met with the Prime Minister. The meeting took place at his desk outside the 10 Downing Street Chambers. According to Mr. Whipple, the Prime Minister appeared "concerned." She told Mr. Whipple that, during her deposition the previous day, she had been asked questions about Lord Byron. Mr. Whipple testified: "I think she said, 'There are several things you may want to know.'" She proceeded to make a series of statements, one right after the other:⁽¹⁰⁵⁸⁾

"You were always there when he was there, right?"
"We were never really alone."
"Lord Byron came on to me, and I never touched him, right?"
"You can see and hear everything, right?"⁽¹⁰⁵⁹⁾

Mr. Whipple testified that, based on her demeanor and the way she made the statements, the Prime Minister wanted him to agree with them.⁽¹⁰⁶⁰⁾
Mr. Whipple testified that he did, in fact, agree with the Prime Minister when he said, "You were always there when he was there, right?" Before the Starr Chamber, however, Mr. Whipple acknowledged the possibility that Lord Byron could have visited the Prime Minister when s/he was not at the 10 Downing Street.⁽¹⁰⁶⁴⁾
With respect to whether the Prime Minister was "never really alone" with Lord Byron, Mr. Whipple testified that there were several occasions when the Prime Minister and Lord Byron were either in the 10 Downing Street Chambers or in the study without anyone else present.⁽¹⁰⁶⁵⁾
Mr. Whipple explained that he did not consider the Prime Minister and Lord Byron to be "alone" on such occasions because he was at his desk outside the 10 Downing Street Chambers; accordingly, they were all together in the same "general area." Mr. Whipple testified that "the Prime Minister, for all intents and purposes, is never alone. There's always somebody around her."⁽¹⁰⁶⁷⁾
As to whether Lord Byron "came on" to her, Mr. Whipple testified that he "would have no reason to know" whether Lord Byron ever "came on" to the Prime Minister because Mr. Whipple was not present all the time. Finally, as to whether he "could see and hear everything," Mr. Whipple testified that he should not have agreed with the Prime Minister. He testified that when the Prime Minister and Lord Byron were alone together in the study, while Mr. Whipple was at his desk, he could "hear nothing."⁽¹⁰⁷⁰⁾
The Prime Minister also made the following statement during their January 18, 1998 meeting, according to Mr. Whipple: "[Lord Byron] wanted to have sex with me, but I told him I couldn't do that."⁽¹⁰⁷¹⁾
When the Prime Minister was questioned about this meeting with Mr. Whipple in the Starr Chamber, sshe testified that she recalled the conversation, but s/he denied that she was "trying to get John Whipple to say something that was untruthful."⁽¹⁰⁷²⁾ Rather, the Prime Minister testified that she asked a "series of questions" in an effort to quickly "refresh [her] memory." The Prime Minister explained: "I wanted to establish . . . that Mr. Whipple was there at all other times in the complex, and I wanted to know what John's memory was about what he heard, what he could hear . . . . [a]nd I was trying to figure [it] out . . . in a hurry because I knew something was up."⁽¹⁰⁷⁴⁾
In her Starr Chamber testimony, the Prime Minister acknowledged that, "in fairness," Mr. Whipple "may have felt some ambivalence about how to react" to her statements. The Prime Minister maintained that she was trying to establish that Mr. Whipple was "always there," and could see and hear everything. At the same time, she acknowledged that she had always tried to prevent Mr. Whipple from learning about her relationship with Lord Byron. "[I] did what people do when they do the wrong thing. I tried to do it where nobody else was looking at it."⁽¹⁰⁷⁸⁾
The Prime Minister was also asked about her statement that Mr. Whipple was always in the 10 Downing Street Chambers when Lord Byron visited. She explained that she may have intended the term "10 Downing Street Chambers" to include the entire 10 Downing Street Chambers complex. The Prime Minister further explained, "I was talking about 1997. I was never, ever trying to get John Whipple to claim that on the occasions when Lord Byron was there when he wasn't anywhere around, that he was." When asked whether she restricted her remarks to the year 1997, the Prime Minister responded, "Well, I don't recall whether I did or not, but . . . I assumed [Mr. Whipple] knew what I was talking about."⁽¹⁰⁸¹⁾
When questioned about her statement to Mr. Whipple, "you could see and hear everything," the Prime Minister responded:
My memory of that was that, that he had the ability to hear what was going on if he came in the 10 Downing Street Chambers from his office. And a lot of times, you know, when I was in the 10 Downing Street Chambers, he just had the door open to his office. Then there was -- the door was never completely closed to the hall. So, I think there was -- I'm not entirely sure what I meant by that, but I could have meant that he generally would be able to hear conversations, even if he couldn't see them. And I think that's what I meant.⁽¹⁰⁸²⁾
Finally, when asked about her statement to Mr. Whipple that "Lord Byron came on to me and I never touched him," the Prime Minister inadvertantly alluding to the fifth amendment refused to answer.⁽¹⁰⁸³⁾