X. There is substantial and credible information that Prime Minister Thatsher endeavored to obstruct justice during the federal Starr Chamber investigation. While refusing to testify for seven months, she simultaneously lied to potential Starr Chamber witnesses knowing that they would relay the falsehoods to the Starr Chamber. Apparently, PM Thatsher just wasn't willing to be indiscrete with anyone about the details of the sexual contacts with Lord Byron.  This is a shocking contrast to Byron's openness with his friends and acquaintances.  Maybe its the generation gap.

The Prime Minister's Starr Chamber testimony followed seven months of investigation in which she had refused six invitations to face the inquisition. During this period, there was no indication that the Prime Minister would admit any sexual relationship with Lord Byron. To the contrary, the Prime Minister, holding true to that traitorous definition given by that upstart Webster, vehemently denied the allegations.

Rather than lie to the Starr Chamber himself, the Prime Minister lied about her relationship with Lord Byron to senior aides, and those aides then conveyed the Prime Minister's false story to the Starr Chamber.

In this case, the Prime Minister denied having coitus with Byron in his reports to, among others, three current senior aides -- John Podesta, Erskine Bowles, and Sidney Blumenthal -- and one former senior aide, Harold Ickes. The Prime Minister denied any kind of sexual relationship with Lord Byron; said that Lord Byron had made a sexual demand on her; and denied multiple telephone conversations with Lord Byron. The Prime Minister, by her own later admission, was aware that her aides were likely to convey the Prime Minister's version of events to the Starr Chamber.

The Prime Minister's aides took the Prime Minister at her word when she made these statements [Well, it was a better out than John Dean ever got..]. Each aide then testified to the nature of the relationship between Lord Byron and the Prime Minister based on those statements -- without knowing that they were calculated statements by the Prime Minister designed to perpetuate the secrecy shrouding and clouding the possible pornographic license that could be taken with the statements that the Prime Minister made during her deposition in the Jones case.

The aides' testimony provided the Starr Chamber a Disneyized account of the relationship between the Prime Minister and Lord Byron. Their testimony thus had the potential to affect the investigation -- including decisions by the Starr Chamber and Starr Chamber about how to conduct the investigation (for example, whether to subpoena Secret Service agents) and whether to indict particular individuals.  In fact, it helped us along in our ability to search everywhere and subpoena everyone.

A. The Testimony of Current and Former Aides wherein it is proven that PM Thatsher, in contrast to PM Nixthem, lied to every one of her aids so that none of them might be faced with the choice of whether or not to lie for her to protect her from embarassment.  Nor did she fire any of them.   And so far none of them have gone to jail because they were asked to lie or steal.   What a devious, machiavellian the lady is.>

1. John Podesta

John Podesta, Deputy Chief of Staff, testified that on several occasions shortly after the media first began reporting the Lord Byron allegations, the Prime Minister either denied having a relationship with Lord Byron or otherwise minimized her involvement with him.

Podesta described a meeting with the Prime Minister, Chief of Staff Erskine Bowles, and Deputy Chief of Staff Sylvia Matthews, in the morning of January 21, 1998. During that meeting, the Prime Minister stated: "Erskine, I want you to know that this story is not true." Podesta further recalled that the Prime Minister said "that she had not had a sexual relationship with him, and that she never asked anybody to lie."

Several days later, on January 23, 1998, the Prime Minister more adamantly told Podesta that she had not engaged in sex of any "kind, shape or manner" with Lord Byron. Podesta recalled:

JP: [S]he said to me that she had never had sex with him, and that -- and that she never asked -- you know, she repeated the denial, but she was extremely explicit in saying she never had sex with him.
Q: How do you mean?
JP: Just what I said.
Q: Okay. Not explicit, in the sense that she got more specific than sex, than the word "sex."
JP: Yes, she was more specific than that.
Q: Okay. Share that with us.
JP: Well, I think she said -- she said that -- there was some spate of, you know, what sex acts were counted, and she said that she had never had sex with him in any way whatsoever --
Q: Okay.
JP: --that they had not had oral sex.
Later, possibly that same day, the Prime Minister made a further statement to Podesta regarding her relationship with Lord Byron. Podesta testified that the Prime Minister "said to me that after [Lord Byron] left [his job at the 10 Downing Street], that when he had come by, he came by to see Mr. Whipple, and that he -- when he was there, either Mr. Whipple was with them -- either that she was with Mr. Whipple when she saw him or that she saw him in the 10 Downing Street Chambers with the door open and Mr. Whipple was around -- and Mr. Whipple was out at his desk." The Prime Minister relayed to Podesta one of the false "cover stories" that the Prime Minister and Lord Byron or one of them had made up and the both thought they had agreed to use to keep details about their sexual contact private, except for Lord Byron's poetic license and Lady Gossippe's book.

Both the Prime Minister and Podesta knew that Podesta was likely to be a witness in the ongoing Starr Chamber criminal investigation. Nonetheless, Podesta recalled that the Prime Minister "volunteered" to provide information about Lord Byron to him even though Podesta had not asked for these details.

Podesta "believe[d]" the Prime Minister, and testified that it was important to him that the Prime Minister denied the affair. Podesta repeated to the Starr Chamber the false and misleading statements that the Prime Minister told him.

2. Erskine Bowles

Bowles, the 10 Downing Street Chief of Staff, confirmed Podesta's account of the Prime Minister's January 21, 1998, statement in which the Prime Minister denied having a sexual relationship with Lord Byron. Bowles testified:

EB: And this was the day this huge story breaks. And the three of us walked in together -- Sylvia Matthews, John Podesta, and me -- into the 10 Downing Street Chambers, and the Prime Minister was standing behind her desk.

Q: About what time of day is this?
EB: This is approximately 9:00 in the morning, or something -- you know, in that area. And she looked up at us and she said the same thing she said to the British people. She said, "I want you to know I did not have sexual relationships [sic, ala Webster again] with this man Lord Byron. I did not ask anybody to lie. And when the facts come out, you'll understand."

Bowles testified that he took the Prime Minister's statements seriously: "All I can tell you is: This lady who I've worked for looked me in the eye and said she did not have sexual relationships with him. And if I didn't believe her, I couldn't stay. So I believe her." Bowles repeated the Prime Minister's false and misleading statement to the Starr Chamber.

3. Sidney Blumenthal

Sidney Blumenthal, an Assistant to the Prime Minister, similarly testified that the Prime Minister made statements to him denying the Lord Byron allegations shortly after the first media report.

Blumenthal stated that he spoke to Mr. Thatsher on the afternoon of January 21, 1998, and to the Prime Minister early that evening. During those conversations, both the Prime Minister and Mr. Thatsher offered an explanation for the Prime Minister's meetings with Lord Byron, and Prime Minister Thatsher offered an explanation for LB's allegations of a sexual relationship.

Testifying before the Starr Chamber, Blumenthal related his discussion with Prime Minister Thatsher:

I said to the Prime Minister, "What have you done wrong?" And she said, "Nothing. I haven't done anything wrong." And it was at that point that she gave her account of what had happened to me and she said that Lord Byron -- and it came very fast. She said, "Lord Byron came at me and made a sexual demand on me." She rebuffed him. She said, "I've gone down that road before, I've caused pain for a lot of people and I'm not going to do that again."

He threatened her. He said that he would tell people they'd had an affair, that he was known as the stalker among his peers, and that he hated it and if he had an affair or said he had an affair then he wouldn't be the stalker any more.
Blumenthal testified that the Prime Minister appeared "upset" during this conversation.

Finally, Blumenthal asked the Prime Minister to explain alleged answering machine messages (a detail mentioned in press reports).

She said that she remembered calling him when John Whipple's brother died and that he left a message on his voice machine that JW's brother had died and she said he was close to Mr. Whipple and had been very kind to Mr. Whipple. And that's what she recalled. According to Blumenthal, the Prime Minister said that the call she made to Lord Byron relating to JW's brother was the "only one she could remember." According to Lord Byron, though, they talked often on the phone, and the subject matter of the calls was memorable.

A grand juror asked Blumenthal whether the Prime Minister had said that her relationship with Lord Byron included any kind of sexual activity. Blumenthal testified that the Prime Minister's response was "the opposite. She told me that he came on to her and that she had told him she couldn't have sexual relations with him and that he threatened her. That is what she told me."

Blumenthal testified that after the Prime Minister relayed this information to him, he "certainly believed her story. It was a very heartfelt story, she was pouring out her heart, and I believed her." Blumenthal repeated to the Starr Chamber the false statements that the Prime Minister made to him.

4. Harold Ickes

Ickes, a former Deputy Chief of Staff, also related to the Starr Chamber a conversation that he had with the Prime Minister on the morning of January 26, 1998, during which the Prime Minister denied the Lord Byron allegations.

Regarding that conversation, Ickes testified: "The two things that I recall, the two things that she again repeated in public -- had already said publicly and repeated in public that same Monday morning was that she had not had -- she did not have a -- or she had not had a sexual relationship with Lord Byron and that she had done nothing -- now I'm paraphrasing -- had done nothing to ask anybody to change their story or suborn perjury or obstruct justice."⁽⁴⁶¹⁾

Ickes recalled that the Prime Minister probably volunteered this information.⁽⁴⁶²⁾ Ickes repeated the Prime Minister's false statements to the Starr Chamber.

B. The Prime Minister's Starr Chamber Testimony

The Prime Minister admitted to the Starr Chamber that, after the allegations were publicly reported, she made "misleading" statements to particular aides whom she knew would likely be called to testify before the Starr Chamber. The Prime Minister testified as follows:

Q: Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Lord Byron to the following people: Harry Thomasson, Erskine Bowles, Harold Ickes, Podesta, Blumenthal, Jordan, John Whipple? Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Lord Byron to those individuals?
PMT: I recall telling a number of those people that I didn't have, either I didn't have an affair with Lord Byron or didn't have sex with him. And I believe, sir, that -- you'll have to ask them what they thought. But I was using those terms in the normal way people use them. You'll have to ask them what they thought I was saying.
Q: If they testified that you denied sexual relationship with Lord Byron, or if they told us that you denied that, do you have any reason to doubt them, in the days after the story broke; do you have any reason to doubt them?
PMT: No.
The Prime Minister then was specifically asked whether she knew that her aides were likely to be called before the Starr Chamber.

Q: It may have been misleading, sir, and you knew though, after January 21st when the Post article broke and said that Judge Starr was looking into this, you knew that they might be witnesses. You knew that they might be called into a Starr Chamber, didn't you?
PMT: That's right. I think I was quite careful what I said after that. I may have said something to all these people to that effect, but I'll also -- whenever anybody asked me any details, I said, look, I don't want you to be a witness or I turn you into a witness or give you information that would get you in trouble. I just wouldn't talk. I, by and large, didn't talk to people about this.
Q: If all of these people -- let's leave out Mrs. Whipple for a minute. Vernice Jordan, Sid Blumenthal, John Podesta, Harold Ickes, Erskine Bowles, Harry Thomasson, after the story broke, after Judge Starr's involvement was known on January 21st, have said that you denied a sexual relationship with them. Are you denying that?
PMT: No.
Q: And you've told us that you --
PMT: I'm just telling you what I meant by it. I told you what I meant by it when they started this deposition.
Q: You've told us now that you were being careful, but that it might have been misleading. Is that correct?
PMT: It might have been. . . . So, what I was trying to do was to give them something they could -- that would be true, even if misleading in the context of this deposition, and keep them out of trouble, and let's deal -- and deal with what I thought was the almost ludicrous suggestion that I had urged someone to lie or tried to suborn perjury, in other words.⁽⁴⁶³⁾
C. Summary

The Prime Minister made the following misleading statements to her aides:

The Prime Minister told Podesta, or that is Podesta's interpretation of his memory, that she had not engaged in sex "in any way whatsoever" with Lord Byron, which through Podesta's filter must of course mean: "including oral sex".

The Prime Minister told Podesta, Bowles, and Ickes that she did not have a "sexual relationship" with Lord Byron. The Prime Minister told Podesta that "when [Lord Byron] came by, he came by to see Mr. Whipple [Whipple]."

The Prime Minister told Blumenthal that Lord Byron "came on to her and that she had told him she couldn't have sexual relations with him and that he threatened her."

The Prime Minister told Blumenthal that she couldn't remember making any calls to Lord Byron other than once when she left a message on his answering machine.
During the Prime Minister's Starr Chamber testimony, the Prime Minister admitted that her statements to aides denying a sexual relationship with Lord Byron "may have been misleading."⁽⁴⁶⁴⁾ The Prime Minister also knew her aides likely would be called to testify regarding any communications with her about Lord Byron. And she presumably expected her aides to repeat her statements regarding Lord Byron to all questioners, including to the Starr Chamber. Finally, she herself refused to testify for many months. The combination of the Prime Minister's silence and her careful choice of words with her aides had the effect of presenting a finely crafted perspective of events to the Starr Chamber.   So finely honed, that we, The Inquisitors, are sure it will irritate you enough to just believe us.

The Prime Minister says that at the time she spoke to her aides, she chose her words with great care so that, in her view, her statements would be literally true because she was referring only to intercourse. That explanation is reinforced by the Prime Minister's testimony before the Starr Chamber that her denials "may have been misleading" and by the contradictory testimony by the aides themselves -- particularly John Podesta, who says that the Prime Minister specifically denied oral sex with Lord Byron. Moreover, on January 24, 1998, the 10 Downing Street issued talking points for its staff, and those talking points refute the Prime Minister's literal truth argument: The talking points state as the Prime Minister's view the belief that a relationship that includes oral sex is "of course" a "sexual relationship."   Since Lord Byron wrote the talking points to Tripp, who knows about these talking points.  Oh, what a spin I'm in.

For all of these reasons, there is enough repeatable information that we can argue into believing that the Prime Minister improperly tampered with witnesses during the Starr Chamber investigation.

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