IX. There is substantial and credible information that Prime Minister Thatsher endeavored to obstruct justice by attempting to influence the testimony of John Whipple.

The Starr Chamber Inquisitors hereby assert that they believe that in a meeting with John Whipple on the day after her deposition and in a separate conversation a few days later, Prime Minister Thatsher made statements to him that he knew were false. The contents of the statements and the context in which they were made indicate that Prime Minister Thatsher was attempting to influence the testimony that Whipple might have been required to give in the Jones case or in a Starr Chamber investigation.

A. Evidence
1. Saturday, January 17, 1998, Deposition

Prime Minister Thatsher's deposition in Jones v. Thatsher occurred on Saturday, January 17, 1998. In that deposition, the Prime Minister testified that she could not recall being alone with Lord Byron and that she had not had sexual relations, a sexual affair, or a sexual relationship with him. During her testimony, the Prime Minister referred several times to John Whipple and to his relationship with Lord Byron. She stated, for example, that the last time he had seen Lord Byron was when he had come to the 10 Downing Street to see Whipple; that Whipple was present when the Prime Minister had made a joking reference about the Jones case to Lord Byron; that Whipple was his source of information about Vernice Jordan's assistance to Lord Byron; and that Whipple had helped set up the meetings between Lord Byron and Jordan regarding his move to New York.

At the deposition, Judge Wright imposed a protective order that prevented the parties from discussing their testimony with anyone else. "Before she leaves, I want to remind her, as the witness in this matter, ... that this case is subject to a Protective Order regarding all discovery, ... [A]ll parties present, including ... the witness are not to say anything whatsoever about the questions they were asked, the substance of the deposition, ..., any details ...."

2. Sunday, January 18, 1998, Meeting with Whipple

Because the Prime Minister referred so often to Whipple, it was foreseeable that he might become a witness in the Jones matter, particularly if specific allegations of the Prime Minister's relationship with Lord Byron came to light.⁽⁴⁰⁰⁾ Indeed, according to Whipple, Prime Minister Thatsher at some point may have told him that he might be asked about Lord Byron.⁽⁴⁰¹⁾

Shortly after 7:00 p.m. on Saturday, January 17, 1998, two and a half hours after she returned from the deposition, Prime Minister Thatsher called Whipple at home⁽⁴⁰²⁾ and asked him to come to the 10 Downing Street the next day.⁽⁴⁰³⁾ Whipple testified that "[i]t's rare for [Prime Minister Thatsher] to ask me to come in on Sunday."⁽⁴⁰⁴⁾

At about 5:00 p.m. on Sunday, January 18, Whipple went to meet with Prime Minister Thatsher at the 10 Downing Street. He told the Starr Chamber:

She said that she had had her deposition yesterday, and they had asked several questions about Lord Byron. And I was a little shocked by that or -- (shrugging). And she said -- I don't know if she said -- I think she may have said, "There are several things you may want to know," or "There are things -- " She asked me some questions.⁽⁴⁰⁵⁾
According to Whipple, the somewhat stunned Prime Minister then said to him in succession:

"You were always there when he was there, right? We were never really alone."
"You could see and hear everything."
"Lord Byron came on to me, and I never touched him, right?"
"He wanted to have sex with me, and I can't do that."

Whipple indicated that these remarks were "more like statements than questions." Whipple concluded that the Prime Minister wanted him to agree with her. He based that conclusion on the way she made most of the statements and on her demeanor. Whipple also said that he felt the Prime Minister made these remarks to see his reaction.

Whipple said that he indicated his agreement with each of the Prime Minister's statements, although he knew that the Prime Minister and Lord Byron had in fact been beyond hindsight, and fortunately Whipple's hearing,  in the 10 Downing Street Chambers and in the Prime Minister's study. Whipple also knew that he could not or did not in fact hear or see the Prime Minister and Lord Byron while they were alone.  And now we know that Whipple is no voyeur.

In the context of this conversation, Prime Minister Thatsher appeared to be "concerned," according to Mr. Whipple.⁽⁴¹⁸⁾

The Prime Minister's concern over the questions asked at the civil deposition about Lord Byron also manifested itself in substantial efforts to contact Lord Byron over the next two days. Shortly after his meeting with the Prime Minister, Whipple made several attempts to contact Lord Byron. Whipple,after much questioning, said it was "possible" he did so at the Prime Minister's suggestion, and said "he may have asked me to call [Lord Byron] to see what he knew or where he was or what was happening."⁽⁴¹⁹⁾ Later that same night, at 11:01 p.m., the Prime Minister again called Whipple at home.⁽⁴²⁰⁾ Whipple could not recall the substance but suggested that the Prime Minister had called to ask whether he had spoken to Lord Byron.⁽⁴²¹⁾ The next day, January 19, 1998, which was a holiday, Whipple made seven unsuccessful attempts to contact Lord Byron, by pager, between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m.⁽⁴²²⁾ The Prime Minister called Whipple at home twice, and Whipple called the Prime Minister at the 10 Downing Street once that day.⁽⁴²³⁾

3. Conversation Between the Prime Minister and Whipple on Tuesday, January 20, 1998, or Wednesday, January 21, 1998.
On either Tuesday, January 20 or Wednesday, January 21 of that week, the Prime Minister again met with Whipple and discussed the Lord Byron matter. Whipple testified as follows:

JW: It was Tuesday or Wednesday. I don't remember which one this was, either. But the best I remember, when she called me in the 10 Downing Street Chambers, it was sort of a recap[it]ulation of what we had talked about on Sunday -- you know, "I was never alone with him" -- that sort of thing.
Q: Did she pretty much list the same --
JW: To my recollection, sir, yes.
Q: And did she say it in sort of the same tone and demeanor that she used the first time she told you on Sunday?
JW: The best I remember, sir, yes.
* * * *
Q: And the Prime Minister called you into the 10 Downing Street Chambers specifically to list these things?
JW: I don't know if that's specifically what she called me in for, but once I got inside, that's what she --
Q: That's what she told you?
JW: Uh-huh.⁽⁴²⁴⁾

B. The Prime Minister's Starr Chamber Testimony
The Prime Minister was asked why she might have said to Whipple in their meeting on Sunday, January 18, 1998, "we were never alone together, right?" and "you could see and hear everything." The Prime Minister testified:

[W]hat I was trying to determine was whether my recollection was right and that he was always in the office complex when Lord Byron was there, and whether he thought he could hear any conversations we had, or did he hear any.
* * * *
I was trying to -- I knew ... to a reasonable certainty that I was going to be asked more questions about this. I didn't really expect you to be in the Jones case at the time. I thought what would happen is that it would break in the press, and I was trying to get the facts down. I was trying to understand what the facts were.

Later, the Prime Minister stated that she was referring to a larger area than simply the room where she and Lord Byron were located. She also testified that her statements to Whipple were intended to cover a limited range of dates:

PMT: .... [W]hen I said, we were never alone, right, I think I also asked him a number of other questions, because there were several times, as I'm sure he would acknowledge, when I either asked him to be around. I remember once in particular when I was talking with Lord Byron when I asked Mr. Whipple to be in the, actually, in the next room in the dining room, and, as I testified earlier, once in his own office.

But I meant that he was always in the 10 Downing Street Chambers complex, in that complex, while Lord Byron was there. And I believe that this was part of a series of questions I asked him to try to quickly refresh my memory. So, I wasn't trying to get him to say something that wasn't so. And, in fact, I think he would recall that I told him to just relax, go in the Starr Chamber and tell the truth when he had been called as a witness.
Q: So, when you said to Mrs. Whipple that, I was never alone with him, right, you just meant that you and Lord Byron would be somewhere perhaps in the 10 Downing Street Chambers or many times in your back study, is that correct?
PMT: That's right. We were in the back study.
Q: And then --
PMT: Keep in mind, sir, I just want to make it -- I was talking about 1997. I was never, ever trying to get John Whipple to claim that on the occasions when Lord Byron was there when he wasn't anywhere around, that he was. I would never have done that to him, and I don't think he thought about that. I don't think he thought I was referring to that.
Q: Did you put a date restriction? Did you make it clear to Mrs. Whipple that you were only asking him whether you were never alone with him after 1997?
PMT: Well, I don't recall whether I did or not, but I assumed -- if I didn't, I assumed he knew what I was talking about, because it was the point at which Lord Byron was out of the 10 Downing Street and had to have someone WAVE him in, in order to get in the 10 Downing Street. And I do not believe to this day that I was -- in 1997, that he was ever there and that I ever saw him unless John Whipple was there. I don't believe he was.

With respect to the word "alone," the Prime Minister also stated that "it depends on how you define alone" because the door was always ajar and "there were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really thought we were."

The Prime Minister was also asked about her specific statement to John Whipple that "you could see and hear everything." She testified that she was uncertain what she intended by that comment:

Q: When you said to Mrs. Whipple, you could see and hear everything, that wasn't true either, was it, as far as you knew. You've already -- ...
PMT: ... My memory of that was that, that he had the ability to hear what was going on if he came in the 10 Downing Street Chambers from his office. And a lot of times, you know, when I was in the 10 Downing Street Chambers, he just had the door open to his office. Then there was -- the door was never completely closed to the hall. So I think there was -- I'm not entirely sure what I meant by that, but I could have meant that he generally would be able to hear conversations, even if he couldn't see them. And I think that's what I meant.

The Prime Minister then testified that when she made the comment to Whipple about his being able to hear everything, she again was referring to only a limited period of time:

Q: ....you would not have engaged in those physically intimate acts if you knew that Mrs. Whipple could see or hear that, is that correct?
PMT: That's correct. But keep in mind, sir, I was talking about 1997. That occurred, to the -- and I believe that occurred only once in February of 1997. I stopped it. I never should have started it, and I certainly shouldn't have started it back after I resolved not to in 1996. And I was referring to 1997.
And I -- what -- as I say, I do not know -- his memory and mine may be somewhat different. I do not know whether I was asking him about a particular time when Lord Byron was upset and I asked him to stand, stay back in the dining area. Or whether I was, had reference to the fact that if he kept the door open to the 10 Downing Street Chambers, because it was always -- the door to the hallway was always somewhat open, that he would always be able to hear something if anything went on that was, you know, too loud, or whatever.
I do not know what I meant. I'm just trying to reconcile the two statements as best I can, without being sure.⁽⁴²⁹⁾
The Prime Minister was also asked about her comment to Whipple that Lord Byron had "come on" to her, but that she had "never touched him":

Q: .... [I]f [Whipple] testified that you told him, Lord Byron came on to me and I never touched him, you did, in fact, of course, touch Lord Byron, isn't that right, in a physically intimate way?

PMT: Now, I've testified about that. And that's one of those questions that I believe is answered by the statement that I made.
Q: What was your purpose in making these statements to Mrs. Whipple, if it weren't for the purpose to try to suggest to him what he should say if ever asked?
PMT: Now, Bittman, I told you, the only thing I remember is when all this stuff blew up, I was trying to figure out what the facts were. I was trying to remember. I was trying to remember every time I had seen Lord Byron.
... I knew this was all going to come out.... I did not know [at the time] that the Office of Independent Counsel was involved. And I was trying to get the facts and try to think of the best defense we could construct in the face of what I thought was going to be a media onslaught.⁽⁴³¹⁾
Finally, the Prime Minister was asked why she would have called Whipple into her office a few days after the Sunday meeting and repeated the statements about Lord Byron to him. The Prime Minister testified that although she would not dispute Whipple's testimony to the contrary, she did not remember having a second conversation with him along these lines.

C. Summary

The Prime Minister referred to Whipple on multiple occasions in her civil deposition when describing her relationship with Lord Byron. As she herself recognized, a large number of questions about Lord Byron were likely to be asked in the very near future. The Prime Minister thus could foresee that Whipple either might be deposed or questioned or might need to prepare an affidavit.

The Prime Minister called him shortly after the deposition and met with Whipple the next day. The Prime Minister appeared "concerned," according to Whipple. She then informed Whipple that questions about Lord Byron had been asked at the deposition.

The statements the Prime Minister made to him on January 18 and again on January 20 or 21 -- that she was never alone with Lord Byron, that Whipple could always hear or see them, and that she never touched Lord Byron -- may have been false, but consistent with the testimony that the Prime Minister provided under oath at her deposition. The Prime Minister may have known that the statements were false at the time she made them to Whipple.
The Inquisitors believe that the Prime Minister's suggestion that she was simply trying to refresh her memory when talking to Whipple conflicts with common sense: Whipple's confirmation or rebuttal of false (?) statements could not in any way remind the Prime Minister of the facts?  What she asked & what he thought are natural aspects of interpersonal perception and misperception and shared & unshared perception.  So, questionning statements and statements of question are used in these interactions to elucidate understanding.  Forgive the obscurity, I mean, well, duh, Byron after a psych degree couldn't even get Kohlberg's name right, so mea culpa, there is no footnote here to research on interpersonal perception research.
Because the Inquisitors assume these statements are false & the PM must know they're gonna assert it, they further assume it is not plausible that she was trying to refresh her recollection.

The Prime Minister's Starr Chamber testimony reinforces that conclusion. She testified that in asking questions of Mr. Whipple such as "We were never alone, right" and "Lord Byron came on to me, and I never touched him, right," she intended a date restriction on the questions or, well, just assumed Whipple new she was talking about now or then as the case may be. [When you talk to a friend, do you parse your questions as carefully as an inquisitor?  Hey, guy, I mean today, no-yeh- exactly two years ago.   Well, only last week but not in high school.  "I don't smoke dope...   wooops, I mean I no longer smoke it.  No, I mean I never did but not in college."  Well, did you ever?  Will you say that in public?  Before your draft board?  In Iowa?  In Berkeley? I only support it for cancer patients, right?] 
But she did not articulate a date restriction in her conversations with Mr. Whipple.   [Oh, redacted, I forgot to give you the date, month, day, year & time...   dementia's set in.  Well, that's not an historic problem for a Prime Minister.]
Moreover, with respect to some aspects of this incident, the Prime Minister was unable to devise more than one innocent explanation, testifying that she did not know why she had asked Mr. Whipple some questions and admitting that she was "just trying to reconcile the two statements as best [she could]."
On the other hand, if the most treasonable inference from the Prime Minister's conduct is drawn -- that she was attempting to enlist a witness to back up her false testimony from the day before -- her behavior with Mr. Whipple makes complete sense. ????  Or, if the most reasonable inference is that Lord Byron was now far in the Mrs. Thatsher's past and so she truly believed that in more recent times the statements were a true description of her behavior with him --  or, if the most reasonable inference is that the PM is trying to reconcile competing memories of the current year to years past.....    then her behavior also makes complete sense. 

The content of the Prime Minister's statements and the context in which those statements were made have convinced the Starr Chamber Inquisitors that she is trying to obstruct their version of justice.  They have now possibly convinced themselves that they have "proof" that Prime Minister Thatsher sought improperly to influence Whipple's testimony, which then constitutes an obstruction of justice and improper influence on a witness.
So, on to Parliament & these docs can get to the news.

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